NEWLEGACY.FR

THE CHANGELOG

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- O.ZANGIEF -

O.Zangief on SRK Wiki (ST)

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Zangief on SRK Wiki (HF)

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GOAL OF THE CHANGES

Turn him into a HF/SSF2 Zangief hybrid. He will have no Suplex/RBG, but will have his no-whiff SPD as well as as the low-invulnerable-but-slow-moving 3K lariat. He will have shitty normals too, like in CPS1. I won't replicate all the different normal grabs from CPS1 since that would be too much work for something that don't really matter that much. Also, HF Zangief also do a lot less damage on mostly everything, regarding that I'll replicate the lower Lariat damages, but only on the 1st active part, to keep it's trade anti air ability in check.

As for his special cancel window, on CE/HF/SSF2 he has a special cancel window of only 4f, and that was kept on ST. But O.Zangief for some reason has a special cancel window of 5f. This allows O.Zangief to cancel Standing Strong, Far Standing Short, Far Standing Rh and Crouching Rh. The only one that have any chance of having a use is Crouching Rh, but CPS1 Zangief could already cancel then since the sweep has a faster startup on these versions. So in the end I decided to leave the special cancel for O.Zangief unchanged, the new cancels are mostly useless, but at least they add something for whoever chooses to play O.Zangief instead of N.Zangief. The only barely useful new Cancel O.Zangief got is Crouching Rh, but even if I nerfed the special cancel window to 4f, he would still be able to cancel it because of the 1f faster startup on Crouching Rh from HF that I replicated on O.Zangief.

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Original colors
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Old

To select O.Zangief, choose any color and then press :

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MISC

Passive grab animations:

+ Behavior buff: last SPD animation vs Chun Li tweaked so now she bounces properly when cornered.

REASON: see the N.Zangief change on this, they are shared.

+ Behavior buff: last SPD animation vs Claw tweaked so now she bounces properly when cornered.

REASON: see the N.Zangief change on this, they are shared.

- Behavior nerf: last SPD animation vs Fei Long tweaked so now he bounces a little farther when not cornered.

REASON: see the N.Zangief change on this, they are shared.

o Behavior tweak: aerial throws can't be activated with down anymore(diagonals still work).

REASON: I think this is a bug.

Throws:

+ Damage buff: Strong and Forward Throw damage increased from 32 to 34 (if behind in rounds, increased from 34 to 36).

REASON: I'm buffing the damage of all ground throws (but not holds) of old characters so they get a small compensation for not being able to tech throws. That means that the base throw damage is 34 points now, like Dhalsim's Fierce throw in ST. Also, there will be rounds in which the behind in rounds damage will be 38 instead of 36 and thats just how the game is coded to be, the same happened with Dhalsim's Fierce throw in ST.

GROUND NORMALS

Close Standing Jab:

+ Behavior buff: Has the anti air hitbox on the first animation frame, exactly like in HF.

REASON: Turning O.Zangief into a HF/SSF2 hybrid.

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ST NL
Close Standing Roundhouse:

o Priority fix: now has a leg hurtbox on the 2nd startup frame.

REASON: Just bug fixing, has no effect on gameplay at all.

+ Damage buff: from 30+4 to 30+20.

REASON: I'm buffing all 2-hit normals that do very little damage on one of the hits. Most of these normals are trash, this is just a way to maybe make them more usable. Now it does the same damage as T.Hawk's Crouching Fierce.

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30+4 ➔ 30+20
Crouching Roundhouse:

+ Framedata buff: startup 1f faster, stays active for 2f more, like in HF.

REASON: Turning O.Zangief into a HF/SSF2 hybrid.

+ Priority buff: leg Hurt-box on recovery is not expanded, like in HF.

REASON: Turning O.Zangief into a HF/SSF2 hybrid.

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ST
4/8/13
NL
3/12/13
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AERIAL NORMALS

Diagonal Jumping Fierce:

+ Priority buff: hitbox expanded 5px forward and 2px downwards, like in HF.

REASON: Turning O.Zangief into a HF/SSF2 hybrid.

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COMMAND NORMALS

Short Knee Drop:

+ Priority buff: hitbox like Diagonal Jumping Short, like in HF.

REASON: Turning O.Zangief into a HF/SSF2 hybrid.

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Forward Knee Drop:

+ Priority nerf: Forward version last recovery frame uses the neutral jump hurtboxes.

REASON: I know this is an unneeded buff (even though it's a meaningless one) but the reason for this change is that I need a free leg hurtbox for the HF 3K lariat change and there doesn't seem to be any available, unfortunately. So I'll reuse that leg hurtbox for that change.

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SPECIAL MOVES

All Specials (minus Lariats):

o Behavior tweak: Input window is no longer random and is fixed at the minimum value.

REASON: The input window on all special moves is now fixed to the minimum value of 7f instead of being random at 7~14f. Having random input timers makes no sense.

o Behavior tweak: 1st input's timer now stays at the maximum value while the 1st input is being hold.

REASON: I am doing this to all non charge special moves. This fixes a problem that affected even the best players on the world regarding walk in DPs: depending on the timing you go for downward (2nd required input for a DP), a walk-in DP would always fail. Lemme explain: on the 1st frame that you input towards (1st required input for a DP), the input COUNTER will be updated and the input TIMER will receive a value that will be decremented on each frame (this is the input timer, this was semi-random on unmodified ST, but is now a fixed value on my hack), meaning you have up to 6 frames to input downwards (2nd required input for a DP). If you input downwards before that timer reaches 0, the counter will be updated again, the timer will also receive a new value again and will then wait for the 3rd input direction required (down-forward). But there's a problem: if you spent all these 6 frames walking forward and then input downward on the 7th frame, the input window will not be increased because at that moment the DP input counter would be back to 0 and is now expecting the 1st input direction again. If you do it on 8th frame it will work though. And that's only considering a frame perfect scenario, a human player will spend more than 1 frame to go from forward to down so there are more than enough chances of missing. So that means that walk in DPs will fail around 10%~20% of the time, not even the Grand Masters can avoid this fact.
With my change, this problem is solved: it's now possible to be 100% consistent with walk-in DPs. I also applied this same change to all non charge special moves as well, since there isn't really a reason to not do it. Normal anti-air (stationary) DPs are not any easier though.

SPD:

++ Behavior buff: remove the whiff animation entirely, like in HF.

REASON: Turning O.Zangief into a HF/SSF2 hybrid. This is now the main reason to use O.Zangief.

+ Behavior tweak: fix the logic which chooses the direction that the SPD will bounce to.

REASON: SPDs that end on UP or DOWN should always bounce backward (side independent) instead of always to the left. Because of this, using Zangief on the 2P side is actually worse on unmodified ST, since on 2P side there is no PRACTICAL walk-in (i.e. starting at towards) SPD motion that bounces backwards. With this change this is now fixed (from a walk in SPD (i.e. starting at forward) you can choose if you want it to bounce backwards (end at UP) or forwards (end at FORWARD)).

+ Damage buff/tweak: does "throw damage" instead of "normal damage" (i.e. not affected by randomness, different damage scaling).

REASON: Just to make him more close to how he was on CPS1.

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42[1]/46[1]/50[1] ➔ 34/38/42
normal damage ➔ throw damage

it doesn't look like it,
but yeah, it's a buff
Atomic Suplex/Running Bear Grab:

- Behavior nerf: remove move entirely.

REASON: O.Zangief will play like HF Zangief, and on HF he didn't had this move.

Punch Lariat:

+ Priority buff: head hurtbox moved 1px up.

REASON: always beats Honda's Headbutt (For O.Zangief, 3K lariat will still lose though, because of the arm hurtbox).

o Priority nerf: 1st active part hitbox now has HF 3P lariat dimensions.

REASON: so it's how it was in HF.

- Damage nerf: 1st active part nerfed from 32 to 26, like in HF, random damage table nerfed from (3) to (2), like in CE.

REASON: I think this is needed to keep this move in check. The fact that it's a trade anti air (see change below) that works almost every time makes it a lot stronger. This nerf is specially needed IMO on the Hawk match-up: it should do less damage than the Dive in case it trades.

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ST NL HF
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32[3] ➔ 26[2]
1st part
Kick Lariat:

+ Priority buff: head hurtbox moved 1px up.

REASON: always beats Honda's Headbutt (For O.Zangief, 3K lariat will still lose though, because of the arm hurtbox).

- Behavior nerf: slower movement speed, like on HF.

REASON: Turning O.Zangief into a HF/SSF2 hybrid.

- Behavior nerf: activation sound from the strong grab (like in HDR).

REASON: So if O.Zangief does a 3K lariat but doesn't move around, the opponent will be able to tell which Lariat version Zangief used so he can counter properly. Without this, you can only tell if O.Zangief moves around (slower speed), but in HF you could always tell, since the animation speed is also different and the spinning sound will also have a faster frequency. Since I will not be able to reproduce that (the animation speed will be the same), this is needed.

- Damage nerf: 1st active part nerfed from 32 to 26, like in HF, random damage table nerfed from (3) to (2), like in CE.

REASON: I think this is needed to keep this move in check. The fact that it's a trade anti air (see change above) that works almost every time makes it a lot stronger. This nerf is specially needed IMO on the Hawk match-up: it should do less damage than the Dive in case it trades.

++ Behavior tweak: animation data from HF (spins faster, 0f startup, 1st active hurtbox is like HF's, no leg hurtbox, but have arm hurtbox).

REASON: this has 2 reasons: the most important one is that this works as yet another visual clue to better distinguish it from the 3P lariat. And the second reason is so that it was like that in HF so it's another aspect that is replicated faithfully.

IMPACTS: This changes completely how you have to fight O.Zangief. For players that are not used to HF Zangief this will sound like an enourmous buff, but it's a mild one at best. You have to understand how the 3K lariat worked in HF to counter it correctly, you can't fight HF Zangief (or this tweaked O.Zangief) like you fight N.Zangief, you'll be destroyed if you do that. You have to know the counters for the HF 3K lariat. And that's what will be explained here right now, because I know a lot of people will complain about this move due to not being used to it.

OK so first of all, it has no leg hurtboxes through out the entire move, so low moves aren't really a counter. But low moves aren't TOTALLY countered by it because Zangief can't grab you on the 1st recovery frame! That means that the best Zangief can do on that frame is to block, so if he's is already at your face, you're still not completely screwed! If you time your sweep as a "meaty" so your move is on the active/hitting frames when the 3K lariat ends, Zangief is forced to block! And you don't even have to use a low move, some characters have mid level moves with good range that can't be hit by 3K nor 3P lariat (not even by the 1st active part of lariats, because in HF they don't hit as low as in ST. In HF, Zangief can't use his lariats as a read to beat Claw's Crouching Punches, for example), so you can also use them safely as a "meaty" (e.g. Claw's Crouching Strong, Dhalsim's Standing Fierce) just to space it out and escape the pressure. If he's very close to you you have yet another option: to stand up blocking. If you do that you'll take one Lariat chip hit but the push-back will be so huge that you'll have enough space to breath. These 2 things are extremely important to know. Also, you have to be aware that from far away every character have at least one normal that beats the 3K lariat cleanly. Because of that, a competent HF Zangief player will mix the 3K and 3P lariat to be unpredictable. You have to watch for this. You have to learn that "meaty" timing for your character and always counter the lariat on that timing, that way you have a single answer that works against both 3P and 3K lariats in case you're going for the "meaty" option.

So, here are the counters:

Shotos: Standing Strong/Fierce if from far away, Standing Forward kick if from middle range, "meaty" sweep xx Hadouken if he's on your face. Random Short Tatsus can counter it well too (N.Ryu/Akuma only).
Honda: HHS counters it extremely well from far away, Standing Jab can be used too but it's not practical. Headbutt counters it completely too from close range, it requires charge but Honda is always changed on that match-up so that's OK.
Chun: Standing Fierce counters is perfectly from far to mid range. If he's on your face, a "meaty" Crouching Rh can be used.
Blanka: Standing Short from far away. You do have plenty of "meaty" options (e.g. Crouching Fierce and Rh), but unless you're cornered you can just Hop back to escape it completely.
Zangief: From far away he's extremely vulnerable to a walk up SPD, since the 3K lariat moves slower. But if you can't do that you can use your own 3K lariat (or 3P lariat if you picked O.Zangief too) which will counter it well too. If he's on your face you can always grab him with the Crouching Grabs.
Guile: from far away you can use Standing Fierce or even the new NEUTRAL Standing Rh (not the donkey kick). If you see he's getting close, you can always get some spacing with a Back Sobat. From up close, if you don't have charge for a Flash Kick the best you can do is a "meaty" Crouching Forward, which isn't an excellent option but even then Guile still wins this match-up comfortably. If you're O.Guile you don't have most of these options but remember his Crouching Forward kick has extra range so use that to your advantage.
Dhalsim: you have all the zoning advantage you need already, but if he's getting closer to you, you can use your Back Standing Rh (the knee move) to counter it cleanly with good push-back and frame advantage too. IF he's too close for that you're probably screwed already, but you still can try to time a "meaty" Crouching Rh (not the slide). Or you can go for a Short slide and then try to grab him while he's spinning, as long you go for a grab holding backwards, if you time wrongly you can block the 3K hit, giving you enough space to escape. You can also try to teleport out of the situation too.
T.Hawk: From far away you can use your Standing Forward Kick or a Crouching Strong. If Zangief is getting closer to you, the Crouching Strong will still be a good option. IF he mixes it up with his 3P lariat you can get beat, though. A meaty Crouching ~Forward/Rh can be safer in that situation. Also, you can buffer a typhoon while doing the low kick: if it's a 3P it will get beat, if it's a 3K you grab him with a Typhoon after your low move whiffs.
Cammy: from far away her Standing Forward kick counters it all the time. If he's close, her Crouching Fierce will also counter it cleanly every time.
Fei: Rekka Kens beat it cleanly so the 3K lariat is almost totally useless on this match-up. If you fear his mix-up of 3P and 3K lariat, your Standing Rh can counter it cleanly from far away. If he's getting close, a Standing Forward kick can be used, but that will be beat by a 3P lariat. I guess it's safer to just time a "meaty" Crouching Fierce/Rh on that situation.
DeeJay: Far Standing Forward kick counters it well enough from far away. You can also use Far Standing Rh for the extra damage/push-back, but the safe range is a little smaller. Far Standing Fierce is pretty good too. Even the Sobats can be used, for knockdowns, though they're very range specific and are vulnerable to the 3P/3K lariat mix-up. If he's close to you and you don't have down charge to counter it with a Jacknife Maximum, then you have to time a "meaty" low normal like the other characters. Or you can just slide to get close and then go for a grab, as long you do it holding backwards, if you mistime it you'll be able to block the 3K hit, which will give you some room to maybe escape. But understand that if he's that close, you're probably screwed already.
N.Boxer: From far away his new, tweaked Standing Rh can be considered OK, have to look out for a 3P mix-up though. The Strong Headbutt was buffed so it can be used as a poke against the 3K lariat, too. From close he has 2 excellent options as well: Crouching Fierce and Headbutt.
O.Boxer: the same counters from HF still work: Crouching Fierce is pretty good from close and from far away. He also has his Headbutt, which is something he didn't had in HF.
Claw: From far his Standing Forward kick and Rh can be used quite safely. Also note that O.Zangief can't beat your low pokes with a lariat anymore, so have that in mind. If he's at your face, you have the 3K back hop to try to escape, too.
Sagat: From far away Far Standing Fierce covers your needs. Even Tiger Knees can be used, if hes too predictable, but of course that's very risky. From medium range your Fierce will mostly likely trade, so on that situation you have to either whiff a Standing Jab or do a Tiger Uppercut. Or you can just Neutral jump and try to hit his arms with a Rh on the way down, theres a specific timing in which you can hit his arms if it's a 3K, but not get hit by a 3P because your leg already retracted back.
N.Dictator: The best counter is the tweaked Far Standing Short, because that can be canceled into scissors/Crusher as a combo. The cancel won't always be possible because the move sometimes won't hit on the 1st active frame though, but that's not too bad because in that case you at least get some space to breathe. Also, that cancel won't combo from too far away, so in that situation it's better to use Far Standing Fierce instead. Depending on the range you can also beat it on reaction with a Crusher. If he's at your face, you're screwed. Still can try to time a meaty Crouching Forward, but the range on it will not always be enough. From far away a slide can be useful if it's done by anticipation (in case you expected a 3P but it's a 3K) since you can mash throw as soon as you recover to throw Zangief out of his lariat.
O.Dictator: Far Standing Rh can beat it from an excellent range, so the 3K lariat is not as useful against him than against N.Dictator.

+ Priority buff: arm hurtbox from HF Zangief tweaked so now the move can be used against High Tigers.

REASON: not having a Lariat that worked for both High and Low Tigers made that match very hard. He had to use 3P for High Tigers, and 3K for Low Tigers, and that made it "impossible" to deal with a good Tiger Shot "pattern".

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ST NL HF
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32[3] ➔ 26[2]
1st part